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Stormcrows: Killers of 2034 Slaves

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Jinari Otsito Otsito Mining and Manufacture 711	Posted - 2014.08.12 23:21:00 - [1] - Quote Op succe.... wait, woops. Too early to say "Called it!" yet? Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Jinari Otsito Otsito Mining and Manufacture 712	Posted - 2014.08.13 12:22:00 - [2] - Quote On the subject of moving the survivors, OTSI could certainly provide transportation to a Republic facility capable of handling such an influx. Running a Marmite blockade isn't exactly too taxing and the Penumbra has yet to be caught by anyone. We'll even waive the usual transportation fees in the name of humanitarian support. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Jinari Otsito Otsito Mining and Manufacture 719	Posted - 2014.08.15 11:46:00 - [3] - Quote Painlessly? Have you ever seen the corpses left behind by explosive decompression? There's no flash. There's no painless death. Unless they take a blaster charge directly, it's one of the worst conceivable ways to die, with several dozen horrible things happening to you all at once. If you are really lucky, you get knocked out during the event. If you're not... Well. What you can do is give them a chance. You can scramble and web the target at the undock, if that's where you catch them. You can give them the option of redocking, dropping the cargo or simply be forced to sit there. Until the self-destruct is triggered, you aren't forced to do anything but deny him the option of going anywhere. By simply venting his hulls at the undock, all that's achieved is him popping out of the clone bay nice and refreshed and with the market interface for another batch of slaves waiting for him. You can't force him to hand over the slaves or redock without self-destructing but not even making the attempt shows exactly how much disregard there is for his cargo. What matters to these people is the kill and the ISK. Everything else is quite demonstrably not a priority. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Jinari Otsito Otsito Mining and Manufacture 719	Posted - 2014.08.15 12:02:00 - [4] - Quote It's not a question of rationality. It's a simple matter of reducing his number of options to the point where there are only three possible outcomes. Redock, hand over the cargo or destruction of his ship. Jumping straight to the last option without attempting the first two is not "saving" anyone. If the last option becomes all that remains, exhausting all others, then there is a case to be made for it being less than murder. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Jinari Otsito Otsito Mining and Manufacture 719	Posted - 2014.08.15 13:09:00 - [5] - Quote Unless you think he's doing ritual sacrifice in the station run hangars, it's not like they're in any more danger in there than when treated to explosive decompression courtesy of bloodthirst and greed. I know Scotty has enough of a bloody fit under the best of circumstances, without having to clear dead bodies out of his hangars. What scares me is that everyone's just ignoring that the only thing achieved is Nappy buying new stock every time you destroy his current hoard. And is it really too much to ask to try going the path of least horrible murder rather than just opening fire without any attempt at doing something else? It costs nothing to try getting his cargo unscathed. Not a thing. Not even trying is not a matter of cold understanding. It's a matter of not giving a crap about the cargo in the first place. Trying to justify it after the fact with "cold understanding" is a pitiful statement of just how little they mattered when put up against blood thirst and greed. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Jinari Otsito Otsito Mining and Manufacture 719	Posted - 2014.08.15 13:58:00 - [6] - Quote The only risks I take are carefully calculated. Going into combat as an unarmed non-combat pilot would be utterly ridiculous by any measure, but I suppose if you can't argue the points you argue the person making them. It doesn't really matter whether or not it has been attempted in the past. It costs absolutely nothing to make the attempts and there is much to gain if it succeeds. Skipping it because it's not as fun as simply jumping straight to the killing part has yet to be even remotely justified. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Jinari Otsito Otsito Mining and Manufacture 719	Posted - 2014.08.15 14:50:00 - [7] - Quote Once more, a lot of talk in favor of the killings but no reasons given not to spend that little extra time on the preceding options when they could save more of the lives in question. You lose nothing by holding him a bit. If he docks, the slaves live. If he jettisons them, they live. If he tries to self-destruct, option three comes into play and you save what you can. This is not your normal hostage situation. There are no guns to their heads and no time pressures involved. From the moment he's pointed and webbed, time is on your side. I repeat, you lose nothing but stand to gain much. Absolute worst case scenario, you're forced to do exactly what you're already doing. Killing indiscriminately. Best case scenario, a full cargohold of live rescuees. Quote: And here is where you clearly and openly demonstrate you have no idea what you are talking about with regards to the situation. And here is where you've run out of arguments and try to deflect the issue. As always. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Jinari Otsito Otsito Mining and Manufacture 719	Posted - 2014.08.15 14:55:00 - [8] - Quote No one's forcing anyone to take my views on board, but neither am I going to refrain from giving them in a public forum as long as no one can refute them. It should be simple enough, if I'm wrong. So far, it seems to not quite be the case. Feel free to argue the points rather than the person, if you wish. It might prove illuminating for everyone involved. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Jinari Otsito Otsito Mining and Manufacture 719	Posted - 2014.08.15 15:03:00 - [9] - Quote Stitcher wrote: Quote: You lose nothing by holding him a bit Sorry Jinari, but you're completely wrong there. You lose a LOT by holding him a bit, while he gains. He gains time to stall, to plan, to act. Hesitation is an opportunity for the target to come up with wiggle room, vent atmo from the hold, call in third party remote-rep, you name it. What happens if he starts fitting guns on his ship and, once webbed and scrambled, ejects the slaves and then blows up the jetcan? What happens if he pays a bystander to shoot his wreck the second his ship pops? Hesitation is a loss all by itself. Pressure and seconds are valuable resources, to be spent as efficiently as possible. You DON'T allow fanatics to stall you. "Stall and plan"? The man is floating in space in a transport vessel. If you know how to circumvent the capsule interface protocols to vent the hold, I'd love to see it. If you can't identify weapons on the hull of his ship, you're too terrible to be allowed out of dock to begin with. You don't allow fanatics to stall you, but you don't slaughter a hold full of slaves when there's nothing to be lost by holding off a while first. Really, are you people so removed from your humanity that it's acceptable to trade thousands of lives just to stave off a few minutes of having to watch d-scan or watch out for potentially dangerous neuts? Thousands. Of. Lives. What conceivable risk do you consider so great that you can't make that little extra effort? Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Jinari Otsito Otsito Mining and Manufacture 719	Posted - 2014.08.15 15:07:00 - [10] - Quote Verin, what points have Morwen or Kohiko made? One says "trying doesn't work because we think it doesn't work" and the other just says "Oh, because reasons. Nope, not going to say what reasons, but reasons.". Your arguments actually had a little weight to them but I really disagree with your assessment that there's any kind of time pressure involved here. The potential problems arising from holding him a bit are so miniscule compared to the potentially thousands of lives that can be saved that it's staggering to see those lives being dismissed out of hand. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.

Jinari Otsito Otsito Mining and Manufacture 719	Posted - 2014.08.15 15:13:00 - [11] - Quote And what added danger are they in that they're not already in danger of with your guns trained on the hull separating them from space? Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Jinari Otsito Otsito Mining and Manufacture 719	Posted - 2014.08.15 15:19:00 - [12] - Quote What I question is the actual existence of your "nine methods". If you actually have any, feel free to send them privately and I'll take them into account. If not, I'll just have to conclude you don't actually have any. Verin, I usually would agree but not when there's thousands of lives at stake. You can't guarantee a single rescued slave if you start by opening fire. The option to open fire remains for however long you hold him but the possibility of getting them all without gunfire disappears the second you open fire. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Jinari Otsito Otsito Mining and Manufacture 719	Posted - 2014.08.15 15:25:00 - [13] - Quote Anslo wrote: I like the part where she ignores my point that shooting the ship offers some chance of some survivors when letting Nauppy take them is assured death for all of them. No one would let him take them anywhere. If you'd followed the discussion you should by now have noticed this is a discussion about when he's immobilized and his options are limited to giving up his goods, redocking (if at station) or self-destruct. This is a situation where the option used so far - indiscriminate gunfire - is permanently available and less than a thought away. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Jinari Otsito Otsito Mining and Manufacture 719	Posted - 2014.08.15 15:43:00 - [14] - Quote While in some ways I can see where you're coming from, I simply can't agree. Option 1 may be highly unlikely but as you say he is a madman and can't be perfectly predictable. This means his refusal to give them over is not a certainty. Unlikely, but even the smallest chance here makes the attempt worth it. Option 2 constitutes a failure to kill him. It certainly ensures those people aren't killed yet. Delaying their murder allows for rescuing them later. Killing them removes that possibility entirely. Option 3, well. It's the same as just opening fire. The result is the same, with the difference of having tried. Perhaps I simply am not capable of getting into the mindset that thousands of dead are acceptable simply to avoid a negligible risk of Nappy pulling a miracle out of his exhaust port. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Jinari Otsito Otsito Mining and Manufacture 719	Posted - 2014.08.15 16:12:00 - [15] - Quote If they feel insulted by it, they could simply respond to my concerns with something other than "Well... because reasons. We do have them! Really!". I also think you're seeing this from a strange perspective when you say "do the math". It's exactly what I've been doing. I've listed the options, the possible results and asked repeatedly for examples of variables that'd make the attempts not worth it, or too risky. The only response have been a nebulous "but he could do something!" without any examples of what. If there is actual risk involved in making the attempt, I'd certainly accept that but no one's brought one risk to the table that can't be easily accounted for and countered. Where the notion that he can just slaughter them in his hangar comes from, I don't know. I think the station administrators would have an issue with a few thousand dead people in the hangars they let us dispose. The worst I have been able to do is eject a pack of civilians I once picked up from my hangar. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Jinari Otsito Otsito Mining and Manufacture 719	Posted - 2014.08.15 16:38:00 - [16] - Quote I'm not saying such a scenario doesn't exist, I'm questioning it's likelihood. The range of possible somethings are as far as I can tell so narrow that they are practically non-existent and even if some nebulous something happens you already have him in your crosshairs and are a thought away from accomplishing the exact same thing as you would with pre-emptive fire. And I certainly would take the station admins into account. If I were to dispose of thousands of people in my hangar I somewhat doubt I'd be allowed to use that station's services again, not to mention fill it with even more of them. Maybe things are different elsewhere, but the stations I tend to use have strict limitations on what I can do with my belongings. Storage, move to markets or trade contracts, move to vessel, move to manufactorums and eject/have escorted out of the hangar. If there's a "biomass civilians" option anywhere I've never seen it. I'd love to be proven wrong of course, as that'd invalidate this entire discussion and give the Stormcrows perfect legitimacy in opening fire at the first opening. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Jinari Otsito Otsito Mining and Manufacture 719	Posted - 2014.08.15 16:54:00 - [17] - Quote It's the only access I have to my hangars, inside or outside my cozy little egg. Given the insanity on display from certain eggers, I'm not at all surprised the station admins limit our access like this. Of course, things might be different elsewhere but that's how the stations I've visited have done it. It's one of the reasons I set up my own starbase, in fact. Public stations are too limited for many of my purposes. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Jinari Otsito Otsito Mining and Manufacture 720	Posted - 2014.08.15 17:01:00 - [18] - Quote Having received a communique from Kohiko Sun giving at least one decent reason and a display of having thought the situation through, I will leave the subject be for now. I still don't agree with the risk vs the reward judgment made but the important thing is that they have gone to adequate lengths to come to their conclusions. I and OTSI in general are satisfied with her private explanation and will keep our offer of third-party hazardous transportation services open for the time being. I also extend my gratitude to Kohiko Sun for providing the requested response, even if it was somewhat limited due to understandable need for operational security. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Jinari Otsito Otsito Mining and Manufacture 720	Posted - 2014.08.15 17:16:00 - [19] - Quote I've been a capsuleer for some time now, Shutaq. I've explained how the station hangars are administrated where I hang my coat or ship respectively, and if you have different options available where you dock that's entirely up to the administration in those stations. I've never walked in the hangars I've disposed of because they're considered out of bounds for non-station personnel and passengers under the watch of said personnel. I've never seen a CONCORD regulation that over-rules this, but there are many things I've never seen in this universe that may or may not exist. In short, your mileage may vary but I can only take my own experiences into account in these things. My experience when telling the hangar workers to trash the contents is that the contents are removed from the hangar, not killed out of hand. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Jinari Otsito Otsito Mining and Manufacture 720	Posted - 2014.08.15 17:26:00 - [20] - Quote Your stations are scary and you are scary. I think I'll stick with the stations where I can't arbitrarily go and kill people in the hangars they provide. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.

Jinari Otsito Otsito Mining and Manufacture 720	Posted - 2014.08.15 17:38:00 - [21] - Quote You might. I live in a civilized State where we can't just up and murder people without consequence. Rule of law and all that silly nonsense. You might have heard of it. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Jinari Otsito Otsito Mining and Manufacture 720	Posted - 2014.08.15 17:45:00 - [22] - Quote Pieter Tuulinen wrote: Jinari Otsito wrote: Your stations are scary and you are scary. I think I'll stick with the stations where I can't arbitrarily go and kill people in the hangars they provide. That would be NONE of the stations. Believe me. You have extraterritoriality, you are an island to yourself with powers plenipotentiary. If someone is in your hangar and you want that person dead, you have only to order it. Do you think you'll get a knock on the door and a pair of officers will arrive to escort you to jail? Does anyone do that when you opt to destroy a jetcan full of people in space, literally right outside the same station? Why do you think that is? Because station managers don't manage anything outside the station? You can keep claiming what you want, but I know my interaction with my hangars are limited to what I've explained. There's no way for me to do otherwise. If other people in other stations do things differently, it's no business of mine. I can't even enter my hangar, other than administrate it remotely. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Jinari Otsito Otsito Mining and Manufacture 720	Posted - 2014.08.15 18:43:00 - [23] - Quote Pieter Tuulinen wrote: You have crews though, right? And don't get me started on all the other things I can do that don't have a button on the Neocom. Next thing you'll be telling me I don't have access to the gym. Or the restaurants on the Capsuleer deck. Or my home in the Nonni system. You'll be telling me I can't hop a shuttle planetside. There's more to the Cluster than your computer interface, Jinny. I haven't told you that you don't have access to anything, love. Where you can and can't go is up to whoever runs wherever you are, not me. I'm just telling you what the stations I use allow me to do or in this case, don't allow me to do. I think it's rather sensible by the station managers in question, given what you people give examples of doing wherever you guys live or dock. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Jinari Otsito Otsito Mining and Manufacture 722	Posted - 2014.08.17 23:05:00 - [24] - Quote It always hurts my brain when Kimmy gets close to making a good point. It's like I'm feeling the laws of physics torn asunder. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Jinari Otsito Otsito Mining and Manufacture 737	Posted - 2014.08.25 13:21:00 - [25] - Quote PIE turning them over to Gradient? Voluntarily? If you'll excuse me I seem to have dropped a jaw somewhere around here and need to find it before my surprised approval stumbles over it. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Jinari Otsito Otsito Mining and Manufacture 737	Posted - 2014.08.25 14:23:00 - [26] - Quote Verin, will you ever just take the bait instead of grabbing the line and pulling the fisherman down to be devoured? I mean, you make us shitposters look so very bad. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Jinari Otsito Otsito Mining and Manufacture 737	Posted - 2014.08.25 18:17:00 - [27] - Quote ... ah, pity. Ah well, PIE staying true to form is to be expected. I'll just go drag that pleasant surprise behind the shed and have it shot, shall I? Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Jinari Otsito Otsito Mining and Manufacture 768	Posted - 2014.09.19 18:40:00 - [28] - Quote Good grief, that post started so well and I was practically clapping before it turned into authoritarian warmongering zealotry. This right here is what makes the Empire and their loyalists bloody scary, even to allies. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Jinari Otsito Otsito Mining and Manufacture 768	Posted - 2014.09.19 19:30:00 - [29] - Quote Lunarisse Aspenstar wrote: Jinari Otsito wrote: Good grief, that post started so well and I was practically clapping before it turned into authoritarian warmongering zealotry. This right here is what makes the Empire and their loyalists bloody scary, even to allies. I am confused. Would you rather the Amarr authorities turn a blind eye to law-breaking and allow it to continue rather than apply the laws in place, as prescribed by Scripture, and the appropriate penalties prescribed? Please note it is Amarr law and scripture that governs First Lieutenant Samira Kernher's comments. If not, how would you persuade the law breakers to cease their illegal practices? A post on the IGS denouncing them? I don't know the laws in question, on either the Empire or Kingdom side of things, but enforcing the laws and morality of the Empire on the Kingdom by means of war if necessary? That's a scary step to take. Who will be next then? The Republic? The Federation? Your allies? @Sam Pretty sure any owned commodity or property can quite justifiably be called an it. I'd take a look at the issues with ownership of other human beings before I'd start getting angry about the grammar applied. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Jinari Otsito Otsito Mining and Manufacture 768	Posted - 2014.09.19 21:04:00 - [30] - Quote Anslo wrote: The more Jinari talks, the more I start to warm up to Amarr. And that's why the Scope must be de..aahahahahaah... oh I couldn't even get that far with a straight face. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.

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